Jack: Is a thing admirable because of the pleasure that it provides?

Socrates: Yes.

Jack: Then, something that is the opposite of admiral – something that is shameful – would be shameful because of the suffering that it causes?

Socrates: Necessarily so.

Jack: So shame is to be avoided because of the suffering it causes?

Socrates: Yes.

Jack: Suppose that it were possible for shame to occur without suffering. Would it still be bad?

Socrates: I see no reason why it would be.

Jack: So shame is bad not for its own sake, but insofar as it causes suffering?

Socrates: Yes.

Jack: Can this be said of other bad things as well?

Socrates: What do you mean?

Jack: Are bad things bad in themselves or because they induce suffering?

Socrates: The latter, of course.

Jack: And this is true of all things that are bad?

Socrates: It must be.

Jack: So then is acting unjustly bad for its own sake or bad because it causes suffering?

Socrates: Because it causes suffering.

Jack: Then if there are multiple bad things, are they of a different nature because they are bad for different reasons, or are they of the same nature because they are both bad for the same reason – that reason being that they cause suffering?

Socrates: They are of the same nature.

Jack: If one is forced to choose between two bad things, which should they choose?

Socrates: Whichever thing is less bad than the other.

Jack: And the reason why this thing is less bad is that it causes less suffering?

Socrates: Yes.

Jack: If a person is tortured, who suffers more? The person being tortured or a passerby who watches the torture take place while sympathizing with the person being tortured?

Socrates: The one being tortured.

Jack: So is someone who suffers indirectly – only through the suffering of another – better off than the person who suffers directly?

Socrates: Yes.

Jack: You already said earlier that unjust acts are not bad in themselves but because they cause suffering. Then, would the suffering of one who acts unjustly be indirect?

Socrates: I grant it.

Jack: Can one suffer in any way other than directly or indirectly?

Socrates: I don’t see how one could.

Jack: So is the suffering of another, of which I am completely unaware, bad for me?

Socrates: It can’t be, for you don’t suffer either directly or indirectly.

Jack: So then suffering must affect me for it to be bad for me?

Socrates: Yes.

Jack: Should I then, prefer, suffering myself or having another person suffer equally?

Socrates: The other.

Jack: Then, if I cause another to suffer, wouldn’t it not be as bad for me, who suffers indirectly, as it is for the other, who suffers directly?

Socrates: I concede that it appears to be the case.

Jack: So then is a man who suffers worse off than one who causes suffering?

Socrates: I see no way around it.